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Author	Topic: Small Car Safety: Are We Kidding Ourselves?	Post a Reply Back to Topics

PD Moderator	Message Posted: Sep 20, 2011 3:53:47 PM Ignore PD Report Abuse When our government goes out of its way to try and convince us that light vehicles are as safe as larger ones, does it make you wonder why they’re so determined to make their point? You might be surprised, but here’s what I found on a website belonging to the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. (ORNL is a division of the U. S. Dept. of Energy.)The ORNL says it’s a “myth” that lighter cars are less safe than heavier vehicles; the reality is that “new materials can make cars lighter and as safe as heavier vehicles”. Here you can see for yourself what they say: Oak Ridge National Laboratory Essentially, the ORNL, and indirectly, the U.S. government, is asking us to believe that light cars are as safe... Visit GasBuddy Blog for full article

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Message Posted: Sep 20, 2011 3:53:47 PM

Ignore PD Report Abuse

When our government goes out of its way to try and convince us that light vehicles are as safe as larger ones, does it make you wonder why they’re so determined to make their point?

You might be surprised, but here’s what I found on a website belonging to the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. (ORNL is a division of the U. S. Dept. of Energy.)The ORNL says it’s a “myth” that lighter cars are less safe than heavier vehicles; the reality is that “new materials can make cars lighter and as safe as heavier vehicles”. Here you can see for yourself what they say:
Oak Ridge National Laboratory

Essentially, the ORNL, and indirectly, the U.S. government, is asking us to believe that light cars are as safe...

Visit GasBuddy Blog for full article

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sluggopyle Champion Author North Carolina Posts:23,608 Points:1,075,890 Joined:Dec 2005	Message Posted: Sep 24, 2011 3:20:46 AM Ignore sluggopyle Report Abuse Sorry, there's zero logic in that. Here's the conflation: => Accidents do happen and when they do many of us want to survive, maybe even walk away. So Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crash test results are the best predictor of your survival. <= What you've got there is not a safety test. That's a crash test. A crash test measures the effects of impact, while a safety test, applied to a car, would measure things like cornering, braking, control under skid, steering response etc. .... Notice what all of those are? Dynamics that relate to ACTIVE propulsion and direction of a motorized vehicle. Because that's exactly what driving is. And those parameters can be (and are) measured, at least by those entities who understand what driving is. On the other hand when you're measuring a crash test you're measuring the amount of punishment a completely PASSIVE object can sustain. Even if the object is moving, it's obviously out of control (else there would be no crash), so it's still passive. That's certainly NOT driving; it's being a target. You've assumed the crash has already happened and stripped the driver of any involvement. It's like judging a bicycle not on its weight and aerodynamics and tires, but on how much I can bash it up with this here baseball bat. It's got nothing to do with what the object does. Unless your name is Harry Houdini I'm not clear on why anyone would want to drive a target instead of a car, but that's all you have when you run crash tests and call them safety tests. You might as well be measuring the effects on the poor slob who sits on the seat in an amusement park dunking booth. Crash tests are an important part of design, but they say nothing about the car as a moving object (and a car is exactly a moving object) --which is a most convenient thing if you're selling Behemoths that handle with the agility of a steamroller, because if you published the results of actual legitimate safety tests, sales would plummet. And that, I suspect, is exactly why we have corporate shills running crash tests and calling them safety tests. That's just dishonest. Especially when such crash tests are held up as the alpha and omega of "safety", while the actual safety tests are never heard from. Don't worry about me, 412; I've been driving since the Johnson administration, big cars, small cars, trucks, trailers, well over a million miles all over this continent (757 of them today) and I've seen every imaginable and twice as many unimaginable moves by those you've charitably dubbed the "less skilled" (I have a few slightly more colourful terms for them in the moment) and in all those miles I've never been in anything bigger than a fender bender, wheras I've been able to anticipate, negotiate, dance around and slalom through more unforeseen potential ghastly situations than I could recount (although I have a few faves), specifically because I WAS driving a safely designed (read: controllable) car and not a behemoth. Oh yeah, I drove a few behemoths too. Just enough to get a feel. That's why I got rid of them. That's why I don't do big: I know better. [Edited by: sluggopyle at 9/24/2011 3:27:01 AM EST]
us412 Champion Author Arkansas Posts:22,832 Points:2,418,205 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Sep 23, 2011 2:59:56 PM Ignore us412 Report Abuse Accidents do happen and when they do many of us want to survive, maybe even walk away. So Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crash test results are the best predictor of your survival. Often a technically superior driver in his small, quick cars cause many wrecks even if they are not caught up in the carnage; their wake destabilizes all around them leading to the destruction. "sluggopyle-Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 10:53:32 AM", relies on his presumed skill to avoid wrecks and luck that some less skilled driver on the shared roads of America does not impale him. Arrogance and luck are not what will save your life. Buy the largest vehicle you can afford.
us412 Champion Author Arkansas Posts:22,832 Points:2,418,205 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Sep 23, 2011 2:59:23 PM Ignore us412 Report Abuse Accidents do happen and when they do many of us want to survive, maybe even walk away. So Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crash test results are the best predictor of your survival. Often a technically superior driver in his small, quick cars cause many wrecks even if they are not caught up in the carnage; their wake destabilizes all around them leading to the destruction. "sluggopyle-Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 10:53:32 AM", relies on his presumed skill to avoid wrecks and luck that some less skilled driver on the shared roads of America does not impale him. Arrogance and luck are not what will save your life. Buy the largest vehicle you can afford.
clpassenubye Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:3,359 Points:755,230 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Sep 23, 2011 12:48:08 PM Ignore clpassenubye Report Abuse When its a big car against a small car you can throw safety out the window
clpassenubye Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:3,359 Points:755,230 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Sep 22, 2011 3:54:45 PM Ignore clpassenubye Report Abuse If its a Heavy vehicle hitting a smaller vehicle at a moderate speed I don't care what the smaller vehicle is made of it's not safe.
tomok Champion Author Portland Posts:33,054 Points:2,347,460 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 11:24:44 PM Ignore tomok Report Abuse I’m hoping we have been ‘slimed’ enough and the ‘slug’ is gone.
Ghosty1 Champion Author Quebec Posts:1,544 Points:383,000 Joined:Jan 2011	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 2:40:06 PM Ignore Ghosty1 Report Abuse You have a better chance in a larger vehicle, but in 45 years of driving, I have not been involved in an accident.
sluggopyle Champion Author North Carolina Posts:23,608 Points:1,075,890 Joined:Dec 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 10:53:32 AM Ignore sluggopyle Report Abuse No-- most larger cars are larger. And that means LESS safe because more mass means less maneuverability. You can't change the laws of physics by royal fiat. If you're going to assess safety, then measure safety. That's not what this article is about. These are CRASH tests. Safety means you don't crash in the first place --not that you sit out in the road like a passive chump waiting to see how much you can absorb. A CRASH test assumes the crash has already happened. And if you're trapped in a typical inverted bathtub Detroit likes to sell, you will. Because you don't have the dexterity to avoid it. So you've just sentenced yourself to impact, hoping you have enough armor to survive it. How smart is that? Look at it this way: we're coming fast down a hill and suddenly a sharp curve presents. I'm riding a mountain lion, you're riding a hippo, and we're going the same speed. Guess which one of us goes home in the ambulance wondering why they bought the "safety" illusion propagated by a car industry that profits from putting that myth out. I mean this is not rocket science. It's more like centrifugal force science. And this article is nothing more than a cheap propaganda piece for that industry and its myth. I hope you brought an umbrella, 'cause its raining cold hard facts up in here. [Edited by: sluggopyle at 9/21/2011 10:54:31 AM EST]
Ray_10589 Champion Author New York Posts:4,956 Points:1,184,935 Joined:May 2009	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 10:11:10 AM Ignore Ray_10589 Report Abuse MOST larger cars are safer ...
lcleveland Champion Author San Antonio Posts:2,666 Points:652,025 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 8:45:10 AM Ignore lcleveland Report Abuse stay with the larger suvs they are safer
Dr Gas Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:3,270 Points:358,505 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 8:32:31 AM Ignore Dr Gas Report Abuse If I DO NOT get into an accident I must have the safest car around!!!!! Want to know what car I drive?
Dr Gas Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:3,270 Points:358,505 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 8:28:14 AM Ignore Dr Gas Report Abuse Since I drive a motorcyle also, What do you fools have to say about my chances????
Teeds Champion Author Dallas Posts:1,255 Points:267,975 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 6:56:36 AM Ignore Teeds Report Abuse Mass always win.
WestDriver All-Star Author Grand Rapids Posts:679 Points:548,770 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 6:21:59 AM Ignore WestDriver Report Abuse When I'm in a lighter car and a heavier car (truck) hits me, it doesn't matter a lot what happens to the car; my body, due to inertia will bounce around a lot more than if I were in the larger car. This can be mitigated by expensive crash equipment, but it can only reduce the injury.
djgunrunner Champion Author Salt Lake City Posts:10,109 Points:2,350,555 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 3:33:06 AM Ignore djgunrunner Report Abuse Might makes Right. Just ask yourself, where does an 800 pound gorilla sleep. That is the same with a truck and a little car. Think of mass.
hok Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:1,370 Points:1,007,570 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 3:14:25 AM Ignore hok Report Abuse I believe vehicles do not have to be heavy to be safe.
sluggopyle Champion Author North Carolina Posts:23,608 Points:1,075,890 Joined:Dec 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 1:29:13 AM Ignore sluggopyle Report Abuse => The myth is true though, at least to a degree. Having worked at a tow yard, I saw them first hand come in from accidents. <= And that shows ---what? Let's say you're a visitor from Planet Schmanet. You happen to arrive on earth in a war zone at a MASH unit. Shall you then conclude from what you see that the inhabitants of this planet are routinely born bleeding from every orifice with no discernible pattern of limbs? Shall you then conclude that the planet is "unsafe" for said humans? Of course not, because you didn't see how they got that way. You don't make a picture out of a pixel. I ran a crash test on this entire article and its mindless premise. It was obliterated. Self-inflicted wounds I'm afraid. [Edited by: sluggopyle at 9/21/2011 1:38:45 AM EST]
DellDude2 Champion Author Nashville Posts:9,420 Points:2,123,710 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 1:16:46 AM Ignore DellDude2 Report Abuse Technology being equal among vehicles in a crash, the safety cages can only do so much for a little car against a much larger object. The smaller car would probably 'bounce' off the larger one and redirect itself into oncoming traffic and suffer many hits.
sluggopyle Champion Author North Carolina Posts:23,608 Points:1,075,890 Joined:Dec 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 1:13:29 AM Ignore sluggopyle Report Abuse => Still, smaller vehicles are less safe than larger ones. It's a law of physics that isn't easily ignored. <= Not true at all. Less mass means less mass. It has nothing in itself to do with "safety". Claiming you're going to rate cars for safety and then instead analyzing crash tests, is apples and oranges. It's a loaded question, the equivalent of "have you stopped beating your wife?". Equating "car safety" to crash test results assumes the crash MUST happen, and that's simply not the case. It's dishonest. This entire article is dishonest -- complete with the setting up of an adversary strawman link that doesn't go anywhere. Come on people, this is not that deep. At least listen to the music when you're being played like a cheap banjo. [Edited by: sluggopyle at 9/21/2011 1:19:06 AM EST]
LanguageMan1 Champion Author Tampa Posts:11,728 Points:1,662,765 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 1:08:27 AM Ignore LanguageMan1 Report Abuse Interesting. The myth is true though, at least to a degree. Having worked at a tow yard, I saw them first hand come in from accidents. However, the article does point out that the newer lighter materials can make vehicles lighter and safer which is true. Still, smaller vehicles are less safe than larger ones. It's a law of physics that isn't easily ignored.
singlemom27 Champion Author Ventura Posts:3,118 Points:641,160 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:57:24 AM Ignore singlemom27 Report Abuse As long as there are more massive vehicles around, the lighter vehicles won't be safe.
sluggopyle Champion Author North Carolina Posts:23,608 Points:1,075,890 Joined:Dec 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:53:08 AM Ignore sluggopyle Report Abuse => Common sense, let alone the laws of physics, (which the ORNL seems to be lacking) <= I'm fascinated by how you reach this conclusion, since the link in the article doesn't even work and never did... => ...indicates that smaller, lighter vehicles provide less crash protection to their occupants than larger, heavier vehicles. <= Actually what common sense indicates is that the premise is "car safety", yet the reasoning then goes to studies of crash tests, and that's dishonest. With a safe car there's no crash to measure. As for the eventual crash protection anyway, what the laws of physics indicate is actually not what you think. Here's the actual study the article mentioned but put a dead link to: MYTH: Lighter cars are less safe than heavier vehicles REALITY: New materials can make cars lighter and as safe as heavier vehicles I still wonder how convenient it is that the original poster takes issue with a study to which the link does not work. That's a monologue. It's a debate with an opponent who's already gagged before the debate starts. One wonders why that's necessary. (And it's bad postering; I ALWAYS check my links and if they don't work I fix 'em)
Saturn93 Champion Author Salt Lake City Posts:7,292 Points:1,640,885 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:38:29 AM Ignore Saturn93 Report Abuse Common sense, let alone the laws of physics, (which the ORNL seems to be lacking) indicates that smaller, lighter vehicles provide less crash protection to their occupants than larger, heavier vehicles. Perhaps it's all a part of the Obama health care package... the more highway fatalities we have, the fewer medicare and assisted living claims there will be, not to mention the reduction in social security benefit payments. When are they going to downsize and lighten the presidential limousine? While they are at it, how about making smaller, lighter tanks and armored military vehicles. I'm sure our troops would appreciate the increased mileage between fuel stops.
trinda1 Champion Author Fort Worth Posts:2,011 Points:544,795 Joined:Dec 2010	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:35:01 AM Ignore trinda1 Report Abuse Small cars will get smashed up real bad in an accident.
alterman156 Champion Author New York Posts:7,495 Points:1,558,725 Joined:Dec 2008	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:32:37 AM Ignore alterman156 Report Abuse Small cars have become much safer through the years.
moonrocks Champion Author San Diego Posts:2,069 Points:1,062,440 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:24:26 AM Ignore moonrocks Report Abuse It would appear that the government has an agenda that is not user friendly for it's own citizens.
sluggopyle Champion Author North Carolina Posts:23,608 Points:1,075,890 Joined:Dec 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:19:30 AM Ignore sluggopyle Report Abuse Essex, thanks for that story. It illustrates my point perfectly. Notice which car (the big one) lost control and which one (the small one) did not. Voilà. Hope your brother got a more sensible car after that. Mountains are no place for a Hippomobile. That's why I have a small maneuverable car here in these mountains. I wouldn't want it any other way.
EssexAdri Champion Author Jacksonville Posts:1,149 Points:280,690 Joined:Jul 2010	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:13:47 AM Ignore EssexAdri Report Abuse i remember several years ago when riding with my brother in his Blazzer through the mountains and it was drizzling. there was an accident up ahead and everyone ahead of us started stoping for it. my brother started tapping his brakes to slow down and stop, and then he started pumping them for everything he was worth because we were starting to hydroplane. he started honking the horn while he was still pumping the brakes and trying to veer the steering wheel to get some traction on anything to regain control, the car ahead of us noticed and pulled off to get into the median and out of our way, but we still ended up tapping the guy. actually we barely touched him, but you wouldn't know it from the damage to the other guy. the other guy was in a 1 yr old 4-door saturn vs. us in a 7 yr old chevy blazzer. 2/3 of his trunk was either crushed or sheared away and he said that it felt like and earthquake to him and his wife and they had bumps and bruises to prove it, us in the blazzer barely felt that we'd hit anything and the blazzer only suffered a cracked headlight frame. so the government can take their propoganda and go try to sell it to someone else. i have first-hand experience so i'm not buying their BS.
bobt2382 Champion Author Texas Posts:2,924 Points:801,345 Joined:Apr 2010	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:13:46 AM Ignore bobt2382 Report Abuse Cars are safe, drivers not so much!
oloung1 All-Star Author Florida Posts:683 Points:452,825 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:13:09 AM Ignore oloung1 Report Abuse i have to laugh at the comments made comparing post accident pics to the safety design of a vehicle. the next time that you are in an accident, remember this, it doesn't matter what your vehicle looks like, it only matters what the drivers and occupants look like. id rather have my vehicle fold up like an accordion rather than have my face or chest absorb that type of impact. but from the responses that are on this post, it seems some members appreciate personal deformity over vehicle damage. to each their own...
sluggopyle Champion Author North Carolina Posts:23,608 Points:1,075,890 Joined:Dec 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:12:04 AM Ignore sluggopyle Report Abuse "Blinded by science" is a good way to put it. Or more likely, by car companies shilling their gross inverted bathtubs on wheels by funding studies and tests and reports that report what they want reported. Again and again these so-called "safety" tests and "safety" ratings are not that at all. They are CRASH tests. IMPACT tests. And the question of how a car reacts to a collision is a completely different question from how "safe" that car is. A CRASH test assumes that the crash is not only inevitable, it has already happened. That's just not reality. A "safe" car handles; a Hippomobile does not. That's why they paint these worst-possible-case scenarios as "safety" ratings. It's propaganda to sell the Hippomobile. Because small doesn't make them as much money. Think about it. The fact is, the smaller nimble car won't be part of that pileup that the fat one can't avoid. THAT's where safety lives. And the more the unwashed drones continue to obediently buy Hippomobiles, the more out-of-control wackos there are going to be for the rest of us to slalom around. [Edited by: sluggopyle at 9/21/2011 12:13:43 AM EST]
Point__man Champion Author Raleigh Posts:4,340 Points:878,670 Joined:Oct 2010	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:11:27 AM Ignore Point__man Report Abuse OK . . . . I'm convinced . . . . now just convince the other 99.9% and then this may become a reality ;)
tedjm1 Champion Author New York Posts:5,609 Points:800,300 Joined:Dec 2006	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:11:01 AM Ignore tedjm1 Report Abuse That would have to be proved. All I know is that small cars always get the worst.
tampacrvdriver Champion Author Tampa Posts:3,361 Points:713,410 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:10:10 AM Ignore tampacrvdriver Report Abuse I like my Honda CRV.
HEBster Champion Author Kentucky Posts:8,793 Points:2,375,000 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:09:29 AM Ignore HEBster Report Abuse I'll keep my SUV...
rxman1 Champion Author Toledo Posts:9,552 Points:1,862,870 Joined:Nov 2007	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:06:42 AM Ignore rxman1 Report Abuse The vehicle with the most lug nuts wins.
umitb Champion Author Indianapolis Posts:3,681 Points:844,415 Joined:Apr 2010	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:06:21 AM Ignore umitb Report Abuse Small cars not safe.
Bigwaynef Champion Author South Carolina Posts:11,487 Points:2,082,710 Joined:Dec 2006	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:06:05 AM Ignore Bigwaynef Report Abuse Yep, Get out quick...
forteras Veteran Author Kentucky Posts:347 Points:1,914,240 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:05:56 AM Ignore forteras Report Abuse Yeah, SMART?car.
DeeLA Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:4,823 Points:1,366,305 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:05:43 AM Ignore DeeLA Report Abuse Interesting.
Toppers Champion Author Atlanta Posts:9,022 Points:2,472,645 Joined:Mar 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:05:35 AM Ignore Toppers Report Abuse Dislike...
GBMAX Champion Author Phoenix Posts:4,659 Points:1,902,580 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:03:02 AM Ignore GBMAX Report Abuse ok
esquared Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:8,072 Points:1,971,085 Joined:Jan 2006	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:02:46 AM Ignore esquared Report Abuse Blinded by science?
wulf2000 Champion Author Miami Posts:3,032 Points:1,390,055 Joined:May 2005	Message Posted: Sep 21, 2011 12:01:30 AM Ignore wulf2000 Report Abuse There is no doubt the government is here to help us.
HiGramma Champion Author Michigan Posts:1,815 Points:445,690 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Sep 20, 2011 11:59:24 PM Ignore HiGramma Report Abuse compared to the SUV that ran over my aunt & uncle's Ford Focus, they didn't have a chance ... but the driver of the SUV was also severely injured, lost a leg, and maybe her life after being comatose for months (they won't notify us, or post an obituary, on legal advice)
southrob Champion Author Tucson Posts:3,605 Points:689,150 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Sep 20, 2011 11:58:00 PM Ignore southrob Report Abuse I will stick with my gas guzzling suburban
SBlouch Champion Author San Antonio Posts:8,740 Points:1,861,215 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: Sep 20, 2011 11:54:36 PM Ignore SBlouch Report Abuse I will stay with the lager vehicles. I still do not think smaller cars are safe especially the way people drive today.
AllGold All-Star Author Lansing Posts:751 Points:1,573,600 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Sep 20, 2011 11:51:43 PM Ignore AllGold Report Abuse So why does that study show large sedans as less safe than midsize cars?
Holly123 Champion Author Charlotte Posts:3,207 Points:791,185 Joined:Dec 2010	Message Posted: Sep 20, 2011 11:49:19 PM Ignore Holly123 Report Abuse I'll stick to a larger, heavier car. I don't do small.
sluggopyle Champion Author North Carolina Posts:23,608 Points:1,075,890 Joined:Dec 2005	Message Posted: Sep 20, 2011 11:42:32 PM Ignore sluggopyle Report Abuse => I don't trust the ORNL. <= An interesting reasoning, considering it's a dead link.